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Thread: Rocky Marciano

  1. #11

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    Even discounting cheating, today's fighters are faster, stronger, have better nutritional knowledge, weight cutting (not relevant for HW but anyway) There's no sport in which you can take the greats of yesterday and expect them to compete on the unlevel playing field. Hell, today Rocky would have been fighting at Middleweight.

    As for Rocky, let's be fair here.

    Yes, the Joe Louis he fought was half the fighter of the Lewis who fought Schmelling, but he's also a fighter who was on an 8 fight win streak against predominantly legit (though hardly all time great) fighters. Walcott was 33, and nobody was looking down on him. Ezzard Charles was a hall of fame fighter as well.

    I think Marciano put it best when asked if he thought he would beat Ali: He said something to the effect of "I'd be conceited if I said yes, but I'd be lying if I said no." There's no boxer on the planet that Marciano couldn't beat. Dude had heart for miles and miles. He's obviously top 10 HW and top 20 P4P all time.

    Is he a top 5 heavyweight? I won't argue with those who put Louis (great fighter with huge significance) Ali, Jack Johnson (though I think the significance of being the first black HW champ clouds people's judgement there) or even Jack Dempsy ahead of him.

    Now that said, I'm biased. I went to school with Marciano's nephews, grew up down the street from one of his assistant trainers (who actually trained me a bit as a kid) and come from a city that has pretty much based it's identity as being the home of Rocky Marciano. But I can't see how anyone could think that he's not top 10.
    A Black Belt is just a White Belt who didn't quit.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocmmafan View Post
    ^^^^^ I dont want it to seem like I am dismissing the legend that is Rocky Marciano. Obviously the guy is a supreme talent to go 49-0 and he wisely retired and stayed away. But, after watching that black and white video clip(s) with him charging forward like Jake LaMotta I started questioning how a legit, potentially greatest of all-time type fighter could box like that. He gets hit as much as Nick Diaz.

    Every boxing forum has threads about Marciano vs other HWs and I would say at least 35% of the posters argue a prime 185 pound Marciano would actually beat almost all the "big" guys. That I just don't agree with but it makes for some interesting discussions. Also, boxing is the one sport where era comparisons can work (though its harder at HW). They have weight classes and Sugar Ray Robinson can be compared to any WW or MW in any decade.
    there is a pretty big difference between 147 and 160 pounders historically and HWs with an unlimited weight class. The modern HWs are a lot bigger than most of the HWs from Marciano's days. As far as comparing eras, I still argue that due to modern training methods, different diets, etc.. its still tough to compare different eras, especially those 7 years apart. I will go back to the Jesse Owens or Jim Thorpe comparisons. Jesse Owens was from a similar generation to Rocky. At the 1936 Olympics, he won 4 gold medals in track and field, the 100, 200, 4 x 100 relay and long jump. I would argue that was the most impressive olympic performance of all time, even ahead of Michael Phelps in 2008. But Owens's times in the 100 was 10.3 seconds (compared to 9.6 or so for Usain Bolt), 20.7 in the 200 (compared to about 19.2 for Bolt), and his long jump was 26 feet, 5 inches compared to the now world record of 29 feet, 4 inches)

    I agree with you that many HWs from the past 40 years or so (going back to the Ali era) probably would beat Marciano because of their huge size advantages.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ocmmafan's Avatar
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    I agree that generational comparisons are unfair to the older athletes but boxing is the rare sport where you can go back generations and see superior, more skilled, more talented boxers.

    Roberto Duran would walk through todays lightweight division.

    The best boxer of the last 20 years and who some argue is the best ever p4p is Floyd Mayweather. Put Floyd vs Duran at 135 or vs Sugar Ray Robinson at 147 and it would be as competitive or better fights than any opponent during Floyd's career. They go back 40-60 years yet are still better than fighters today.

    Jack Lambert weighed 220 and ran a 4.86 40 - one of the greatest linebackers to ever play. He would struggle to find a spot on a NFL roster today yet he retired 30 years ago. Football has changed a LOT, track and field is much different but boxing isn't.

    Boxing is the one sport where todays fighters are lesser skilled than past generations, IMO. Marciano might be able to wade through some of the big guys and out heart them and KO them. James Toney was able to balloon up and he never got KOd so I don't think its impossible. Some of the building guards I chat with are re-hired retired guys in their 70s/80s and they tell me Marciano would knock out everyone I list (Lewis, Bowe, Holmes, Klitsckos) but not Ali.

  4. #14

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    Rocky beats either Klitscko, Bowe, and probably Lennox. I think with Holmes he wins more than he loses. I think Ali beats him more often than not.
    A Black Belt is just a White Belt who didn't quit.

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    MMAWeekly Regular purekane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Rocky beats either Klitscko, Bowe, and probably Lennox. I think with Holmes he wins more than he loses. I think Ali beats him more often than not.
    Based off what? Marciano had true grit, but someone who is 5'10 isn't

    getting past Vitali's jab. That being said, my dad said Marciano

    would murder him, cause he retired w/0 losses.



    Remember what I said about being swayed w/an undefeated record.

    Wonder what they'll say 50 years from now

    if pretty boy Floyd hangs'em up w/out

    fighting pac man?
    Last edited by purekane; 11-30-2012 at 11:27 PM.
    give me becky

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    Senior Member Murphs56's Avatar
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    I would equate Marciano's win over Louis to Tyson's win over Holmes. They beat 2 of the best heavyweight fighters ever that weren't anywhere near what they once were. Marciano is truly a tough one when looking at the history books. Most would have Louis and Ali as the greatest. After that, it's anyone's guess. Holmes, Lewis, Marciano, Foreman, Frazier. They all make strong cases

  7. #17
    MMAWeekly Elite boboplata2.0's Avatar
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    the only current HW boxer that marciano could beat is nipples. marciano would be jabbed to death by the brothers karamazov.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Floyd1982's Avatar
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    When Ali trained with him during their filming for a computerized boxing simulator, Ali stated Rocky was exceptionally hard to bit and was very deceptive and awkward. Rocky cut very easily so the damage it looked like he sustained was deceptive. He was able to avoid most damage and some would say he is up there with the p4p hardest hitters in boxing. He would rupture blood vessels when he hit people's arms, he was even known to break forearms with his punches, and he put a dude in a coma. Media bias or boxing propaganda, that f*cker could hit like a truck.

    Did I mention he won the simulation b/w him and Ali? I know that was a computer program over 40 years old and I am sure there were some heavy bias but still.

    All that nut-huggery aside, I can't really rank him as a top HW b/c by todays's standards, he wasn't a HW. I truly believe Tyson, foreman (young or old), and Holyfield (and guys like them) would crush him but if you made them comparable in size, it would be a better discussion.

    I think Marciano is one of those guys that was better than people give him credit for and want to write off a major accomplishment (undefeated) due to lack of opponents but that wasn't his fault, he crushed everyone in front of him. It's like blaming Anderson Silva for the MW division being weak.
    .............

  9. #19
    MMAWeekly Regular Jackel585's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boboplata2.0 View Post
    the only current HW boxer that marciano could beat is nipples. marciano would be jabbed to death by the brothers karamazov.
    Except for the fact that you could probably shoot Marciano with a .50 cal and he'll still swing away at you. That was his style, get hit and punch you till you are bloody and bruised and done. Even with his lack of size, he would punch so hard that his opponents while blocking what should be a simple punch would have their blood vessels on their arms just exploded.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Floyd1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purekane View Post
    Based off what? Marciano had true grit, but someone who is 5'10 isn't

    getting past Vitali's jab. That being said, my dad said Marciano

    would murder him, cause he retired w/0 losses.



    Remember what I said about being swayed w/an undefeated record.

    Wonder what they'll say 50 years from now

    if pretty boy Floyd hangs'em up w/out

    fighting pac man?
    Vitali is suffering from Matciano-uti's as well. The HW division right now isn't what it used to be even 15 years ago much less back when there was a prime Lennox, Tyson, Holyfield etc. as far as a 5' 10" dude not getting past his jab... A prime Tyson could do that and put him away. Marciano may not have been able to though.

    For those people that said Rocky beat past their rooms fighters, while it was the case against Louis (a rocky admitted, said Joe was a shell of his former self), there were also that were labeled as old but went in to fight many more fights after Rocky and had a winning record. Ezzard fought over 20 times after he fought Marciano.

    Not too sure why I'm arguing it b/c I don't think Marciano was the greates HE o all time or even top 5 bu I think he gets poo-poo'r on way too much. To answer your question, I think if Floyd "ducks" Pacman, there will always be an asterisk by his undefeated record, deservingly or not.
    .............

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